Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Welcome everyone, Dr. Mercola, helping you take control of your health. And today we're joined by Barbara Loe Fisher, who's been on many times previously. And we're here today to commemorate the Vaccine Awareness Celebration of 2023. We've been doing this for a number of years, but Barbara's been doing her work for much longer, 41 years now since she started NVIC, the National Vaccine Information Center, that has been pioneer in advocating for consumer freedom of choice and bodily autonomy when it comes to decision-making regarding vaccines. And today she's going to share with us some exciting research that she's compiling for a presentation to a federal judiciary committee, I believe. And she's going to explain what she's uncovered, and is somewhat disheartening to see, but not surprising considering what they've done in the last few years. So with all that, welcome and thank you for joining us.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Oh, well, thank you. This is our 14th annual Vaccine Awareness Week.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Oh my gosh.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

That's right. And you've been supporting our work for 15 years.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

That's a long time.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

It doesn't seem possible it's been 15 years, but it has and a lot has happened in that time. A lot happened before that time, but a lot has happened since you lent your support to this effort, this noble cause really. And yes, I have been deep into research. I decided that I wanted to know exactly who, what and why NVIC and my voice has been silenced online.

And during the time that this all happened, particularly after the COVID Pandemic declaration in early 2020, we were so busy trying to figure out what was going on like most people, and then trying to figure out how we were going to stay in touch with our followers because we could feel the onslaught of this oppression that was coming to us. And it didn't just start in 2020, actually, as you well know because of the commentaries I was writing that you were publishing on your website as well, there has been this progression and the escalation of persecution, demonization, discrimination against anyone who takes a position that does not conform with government and World Health Organization vaccine policy recommendations.

So we knew particularly in 2015 with the Disneyland measles outbreak that the heat really was on because the goal was clearly by the pharmaceutical lobbyists that had joined with government, the goal was to have everyone have to take every federally recommended vaccine. And they knew that our opposition, the work we were doing in the states that we had been doing since 2010 to educate legislators about the fact that they needed to have informed consent protections of vaccine laws, they knew that this was a big obstacle. But actually in my research I realized that it was around 2009 when you lent your support to NVIC that actually the persecution began.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Sorry about that.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Honestly, that's what I realize now. And what I've done in this report is I've gone in chronological order, I bring the reader along so that they can see how every step of the way this was done. And last night I said, "This reads like a crime novel." It's unbelievable what has been done because a group of parents in 1982 whose children had been injured by DPT Vaccine decided to take on the pharmaceutical industry and big public health. And that law in 1986, the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act was really a major piece of legislation that basically said vaccine safety should be a national priority in this country, that vaccines do injure and kill. And that was the first time that had been acknowledged.

And from that point on, the pharmaceutical industry knew that they had to do something to stop this. But it took them a long time. And what I've done is, like I say, I've gone into and gotten the documents. What's amazing to me is it's all online, all you have to do is put it together. Some of the documents that I have found that are in the report, this report is anchored by over 300 references, live linked. So what you can do as a reader, you are able to go in and you were able to read the reports and the documents that I have put together yourself and decide for yourself if what I have found here is one of the most incredible stories in the history of medicine.

I'll just show you some of the documents. Here we have in 2019 a report combating targeted disinformation campaigns, a whole of society issue, and who do we have meeting? The FBI, Fannie Mae, the MITRE Corporation, National Oilwell Varco, Booz Hamilton, University of Florida, Levin College of Law, Northern California Regional Intelligence Center. This is a meeting that is basically trying to say that the internet needs to be policed, that social media platforms need to be sure that information that is not officially blessed, if you will, is not on the internet. Then we have in 2020 the Sabin-Aspen Vaccine Science & Policy Group, this is funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Meeting the Challenge of Vaccination Hesitancy. You have in July of 2020 The Anti-Vaxx Industry, that was published by the Center of Countering Digital Hates and that is really when the escalation of the demonization of anybody-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

What year was that published? What year was that?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

I'm sorry?

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

What year was that published?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

That was in July of 2020.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yes, I thought that's when it came out.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

That is where they come after you and me at NVIC. So The Anti-Vaxx Playbook by Center for Countering Digital Hate in December of 2020 was three months after NVIC held our fifth international public conference on vaccination. And that was really the all-out frontal assault on anybody that is branded an anti-vaxxer. And in that report, again, NVIC, myself, you and others who spoke at the NVIC conference are targeted and demonized and in vicious language. I mean, Imran Ahmed who founded the Center for Countering Digital Hate is a political operative out of England who now has come to the United States in the Washington DC area to do his work in trying to discredit and demonize and stop anybody who does not again conform with what the World Health Organization and US government decides is the correct vaccine information.

In 2021, we have Confronting Health Misinformation by the US Surgeon General, again pointing to Imran Ahmed's report, which has been referenced that report on the disinformation, even though I was not on the list, I was NVIC and my name was listed as an organization like the Organic Consumers Organization, both of whom you do support as being a threat to health security and should be thrown off of the internet.

Here we have in 2021 the World Health Organization, WHO Public Health Research Agenda for Managing Infodemics and how they define infodemic is basically too much information, we have too much information. They've got to be the arbiters of what is truth, they've got to be the ones to tell everybody what to think.

And then you have in 2021, March of 2021, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Center for Health Security, National Priorities to Combat Misinformation and Disinformation for COVID-19 and Future Public Health Threats: A Call for National Strategy. You have the National Strategy for Countering Domestic Terrorism, this is in 2021 put out by the National Security Council. You have Memes, Magnets, and Microchips: Narrative Dynamics around COVID-19 Vaccines, called the Virality Project, put out by Stanford International Observatory, the NYU Center for Social Media Politics, the University of Washington Center for an Informed Public, Graphika. It goes on and on.

And what is so unbelievable is that what it shows is that the federal government, the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of State, the Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Defense and more joined with businesses and institutions in society, particularly universities, to create what is known now or is described by some as the censorship industrial complex or the disinformation industrial complex. And it is an unbelievable story about how ordinary citizens in this country, and particularly myself and NVIC, who have been working for 41 years with the federal government, with state governments doing work in a civil and responsible way, the way we're supposed to do it in this representative constitutional republic when we want to change something, we were targeted for elimination from the public square, the digital public square simply for trying to be good citizens. This committee in the judiciary that's headed by Representative Jordan.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Who may be the speaker of the House.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

I don't know, but all I know is that he's a very courageous man because he is digging down in the testimony that's being submitted, one of my references is the Weaponization of CISA, which is the cybersecurity agency, how a cybersecurity agency colluded with big tech and disinformation partners to censor Americans. And the testimony that's already been submitted to that committee is phenomenal and I've referenced that kind of testimony is in these 300 references, more than 300 references that I have in this report.

I'm very glad I did it, but it was a sobering experience. I still am trying to deal with what I learned and I feel like everyone needs to understand this is a moment in history when we do have a choice to make, we are either going to stand up in this constitutional republic and fight for our right to freedom of thought, speech and conscience, or we will live as slaves for the rest of this century. And it reads like a crime novel and I feel like I've lived through it.

And the one thing is you look at everything that was thrown against us and we're still standing, we're still here, we're still able, at least right now as you and I are talking, we're able to communicate online with our followers, through your newsletter, through the NVIC websites. How long that's going to last, I don't know, but I do know that for every day that we're able to speak in the public square to the limited extent that we can, because NVIC, our websites have dropped by half in terms of visitors. We're off of Facebook, we're off of Instagram, we're off of YouTube. All my commentaries for more than a decade, completely gone. Twitter, when Elon Musk purchased Twitter and it's now known as X in February 23rd of this year, NVIC was restored to that platform. But other than that major platform, we're blocked.

And on December 21st of 2021, 18 members of the US House of Representatives from one political party wrote a letter to PayPal and told them to take me and NVIC off of that platform so that nobody could donate to NVIC through PayPal. I mean, this is an all out assault on trying to obliterate a small nonprofit charity. We're a small charity, but we were able to strike a chord within many Americans and many legislators who understood the importance of protecting informed consent rights when it comes to taking a medical risk, in this case a vaccine risk.

So I'd like to report too in terms of there will be another report released Vaccine Awareness Week. My report is released on Wednesday, November 1st, along with a commentary this week. And then later in the week, Don Richardson's report on what's happened in the states legislatively will be released. And the good news there, because I don't have all the details to give you, but I'll just give you an overview, and that is we followed over 1000 bills, posted over 700 bills on the NVIC advocacy portal at nvicadvocacy.org and not one state passed vaccine mandate. There has been an awakening in the state legislatures, not one passed a mandate. We know, as I reported last year, no COVID mandates. DC had a COVID mandate, they rolled it back this year for the school children. Not one state passed a minor consent bill that allows doctors to persuade children without their parents' knowledge or consent to get vaccinated, children as young as 11 years old, but not one bill passed this year. So there are two times as many positive vaccine bills that we supported than negative vaccine bills. It's an incredible story.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

And that's the reason they targeted you, precisely.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yeah. And money.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Because you know you're a difference.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Making money, that disinformation, censorship industrial complex, hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent not only by the federal government, but these philanthropic organizations.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Ostensibly, ostensibly.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Bill and Melinda Foundation.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Ostensibly philanthropic.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Well, they're definitely political now. Yeah, it's a spider web that has got government partnering in public-private partnerships with business, banking industry, the World Health Organization, United Nations. It's a huge web. And like I say, a miracle that with everything they' ve thrown against us and certainly they have targeted you relentlessly, the super-spreader, right? The coronavirus super-spreader in the media that is cooperating with this government public-private partnership enterprise to try to silence people who speak online, who speak the truth basically online about vaccine risks and failures and about the oppression of the mandatory vaccination system.

So I urge everybody to please tune in on Wednesday when we release this report, read it, share it with your friends and family and please, we've been ghosted and we do need donations, we do need your support for us to continue to do this work that we've been doing for 41 years.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yeah. So will you be actually testifying before Jordan?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

No, I have not been invited to do that, but I am going to be speaking with committee and I'm going, like I say, be releasing this report to them.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Okay, perfect. Yeah, as you probably know as we're recording this, I think last week, I believe last week, October 9th, Bobby Kennedy launched his campaign as an independent candidate, not as part of the Democratic Party. So there was obviously an equally vigorous attempt to discredit him, as they've thrown at both of us.

And it's interesting, and the reason I'm mentioning this is in September we posted a poll on X asking if they thought that Bobby should run as an independent and they use that to weave into the reporting on his running as an effort to brand, because actually I've already been branded as I guess the symbol of anti-vaxx, I think that would be a fair statement. I mean, if you could put anyone's face on the symbol of being anti-vaxxer, it would be my face. I mean, I think because of the reach I've had. And the reporting on his candidacy confirmed that because it was only I think two sentences, but it was in every report, hundreds if not thousands of reports that went out across the world just describing his candidacy, everyone included this statement, it was just crazy, that I had run this poll... No, they mentioned my name as a prominent anti-vaxxer, boom, okay. So they wanted to discredit Bobby by connecting him with me.

So it is just interesting and to me, that just gives me enormous pleasure and pride that we've been so successful. And I hope you share that feeling too with what they've done to you because I mean if they didn't do that, your whole life's worth would be almost destroyed. It's just meaningless, not destroyed but meaningless because it didn't have an impact.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

You can see in the report, because I've gone chronologically, I've told the story as if you're living it, the reader is living through it.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

In real time?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

In real time, and documenting what was done. And it's clear, the patterns are clear. Whenever they feel that there is a lessening of the vaccine uptake or opinion is changing, there's an outbreak of nasals or pertussis or whatever. And then there's an orchestrated publicity campaign that repeats, all of the media outlets around the world repeat the same thing. And if they decide they're going to target you, for example or me, then that is repeated over and over again. And certainly Imran Ahmed's Center of Countering Digital Hate, the reports that he did and nobody can find out who funds him, he refuses to say who funds him. And yet you and I were targeted in December of 2019 by The Washington Post., "Oh my goodness, Barbara Loe Fisher and MVIC are partnering with Dr. Joseph Mercola who sells products."

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

I got on the front page for that one. I was the primary funder of the anti-vaxx movement, according to their interpretation. I'm not claiming that, but that's what they stated.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

And honestly, Dr. Mercola, when you read this report and you realize the hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars involved in-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

In coordinating this campaign, yeah, I mean it's a small fraction of 1% of what they spent to discredit everything.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yes, this is about business at the end of the day. I always have said it's about ideology. For many years, I said it's about ideology. And my dear husband says, "No, Barbara, it's about business, it's about the money." And I go, "I don't know." Well, you know what? It is about the money. At the end of the day, this is about a pharmaceutical industry and their partners with pharmaceutical, including academia, including a lot of other institutions in society, who have decided that there will be no opposition to the mass use of vaccines, every vaccine that the pharmaceutical industry creates.

But vaccination has been used as a political tool, no question. And that's where ideology comes in, this idea that you have not got the right to protect your bodily integrity or that of your minor child because you must take the risk for the good of society. That's the utilitarian rationale, for the greater good. A minority of people can be sacrificed in service to the rest. And I have been very focused on that pseudo-ethic and defending informed consent. But when I did this report, I went, "Wait a minute, this is about the money. Pure and simple, it's business." And that's where it is disturbing because I'm disturbed by the fact that so many different institutions in society, particularly academic institutions, have been co-opted by the money. And it is very dangerous. And really, you and I have talked about this before, left and right, we've really got a melding of government with big business, which is basically fascism.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yeah, it's the definition of fascism.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

And it's frightening really, and it needs to stop. And government money should not be used to try to demonize people and to drive them out of the public square. The whole issue of freedom of thought, speech and conscience is such a fundamental freedom issue and I really hope that the report that I've written will help open some people's eyes as to how the issue of vaccination has been used to try to discriminate against and silence people in the public square.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Thanks for compiling that information, help enlighten people as to exactly what they've done if they weren't suspicious already, but at least document it objectively.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

We've got new vaccines out. I mean, what's happened in the last year, here we've got the RSV vaccine and a monoclonal antibody they're trying to sell as a vaccine.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Are these combined into one vaccine that way, the flu, the RSV and the COVID?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

No, I don't think yet.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Still separate? But that's the plan.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yeah, but I mean, here's the thing. We've got the mRNA products, which we know are not vaccines, and now we've got a monoclonal antibody shot for the little babies, RSV monoclonal antibody shot, which is basically a synthetic protein made in the lab that tries to make your body thinks as if it's antibodies, but anyway, to give to these little babies. Most children have RSV and it's like a bad cold. Most children have it and have no complications within the first two years of life and they get natural immunity. There's about between 100 and 300 children who die of RSV every year, but most of them are immunocompromised, have some sort of underlying health issue, yet they want all the babies to get this monoclonal.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Well, and the immunity that they get is permanent, permanent immunity the rest of their life, whereas the monoclonal antibodies is absolutely temporary, requires an expensive shot every year.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

For hundreds of dollars for the shot, hundreds of dollars. Then they've got an RSV vaccine for the elderly. Now the elderly, people over 65 in this country, there's I think about 6,000, 10,000 deaths due RSV, but it's a respiratory disease that can cause a pneumonia complication so that makes sense, right? A lot of old people die of pneumonia of respiratory disease. So this RSV vaccine, again, hundreds of dollars for the shot is for people over 65 and one of the manufacturers is for pregnant women. They want to give pregnant women the RSV vaccine in order to supposedly protect their babies. So what is happening is as the COVID vaccine has been rejected... I mean, there's like a 4% uptake right now of the new COVID booster.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

4%? That's interesting. I haven't heard that statistic.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I hope I have got my things right here. I mean, it's a extremely low uptake and the reason is that people understand now that that shot does not prevent infection and transmission even though they were led to believe that the shot would prevent infection and transmission. So you have a very low uptake of the booster. Pfizer has announced-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

I suspect it's also combined with the fact that they appreciate it can cause permanent harm and disability, even death.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

No question, also that.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yeah, so it's not just ineffective, I mean that's bad enough, it doesn't work so why should I bother? But if it can harm, disable or kill me, maybe I shouldn't get it.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Right, of course. But this is why all the polls are showing that there's not just the rejection of the COVID vaccine by large numbers of people, but people are now starting to lose confidence in the other.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

That is a great, great point. And I had forgotten about that and I wonder if you could elaborate on that because that may be the silver lining of all of this is that we've literally demolished, destroyed the concepts of the importance of vaccines for a large segment of the population. I'm wondering if you can give us your projection, insights, belief or understanding of what that dent has been?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yeah, the polls are showing a lessening of confidence in vaccination because of what they did with the COVID vaccine. I mean, the fail of the COVID vaccine is not just for that product itself, it is really what they did in terms of how people think about vaccination. So a lot of people are just going to skip that flu shot this year. There's an uneasiness about vaccination right now, and I think it's their own fault. It's the fault of the federal agencies and the pharmaceutical companies that tried to oversell this product, tried to make everybody afraid that they were going to die if they didn't get it. There was like an 80% uptake in this country of one COVID shot. That's a huge, huge uptake. However, on the second round, and now I think this is the fourth booster.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

No, it's the fifth, the fifth.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Fifth booster people are just saying, "Well, I don't think so." And Pfizer announced this week that they're having to cut 3 billion in expenses and in staff, et cetera, because they are not able to meet the projections for their stockholders of the uptake of the COVID booster.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Oh man, we should have a pity party for them because they're not going to make $100 billion this year.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

I know.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

$100 billion, $100 billion dollars. The most earnings of any pharmaceutical company in the history of the world.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Correct.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

But I'm trying to understand this and I haven't dived deep in it, I haven't seen patients for over a decade, maybe coming up on two decades actually so I don't know how the dynamics and mechanics of this works, but obviously when the COVID vaccine came out they were charging like 30, $35, now it's $135, somewhere in that ballpark. And then you mentioned these other vaccines like the RSV and the flu, they're in over $100. That's a lot of money. That is a lot of money for people who are financially impaired, which is the majority of the country.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

300 to $500 a shot for those RSV vaccines.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

That's just insane. So how can any middle class family afford a $500 shot for one or more of their kids? To me it seems like it's either that or you're not paying the mortgage or paying for food. So who is paying for that? Is this the benefit they get from the insurance they have from their employer that the insurance pays for it? Because it's hard to imagine any significant portion of the population paying these outrageous fees.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Well, there are stories out that this rollout of this monoclonal antibody for the babies and the RSV vaccine for the elderly and pregnant women is meeting a lot of blockades because the insurance companies of course are going, "I don't know if we want to pay for all that shot. Maybe we'll pay something, but I don't know if we want to pay $3-500 a pop." So there are insurance questions. Of course there's the Vaccines for Children Program, which the taxpayers pay for and that's for underinsured or uninsured children. So the CDC, even though the World Health Organization and the FDA has not classified the monoclonal antibody shot as a vaccine, the CDC said, "Oh yeah, it's a vaccine." Well, why did they do that? They did that because the shots that are recommended for children come under the liability protection of the law, the '86 law. So what the manufacturers are trying to do is get every product that they can think of to squeeze into that vaccine category recommended by the CDC as a vaccine for children in order to come under the liability protection. And that's the way it works.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Well, you mentioned that the government's paying for this for people who are underinsured or non-insured. So what percentage of the population is provided this coverage where they're getting these free vaccines?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

No, I don't know the Vaccines for Children Program, I don't know the percentage of children.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

What do you think? Is it 10%, 50%? I mean, it seems like it might be a lot.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

I'll have to look for that.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

It's just hard to believe that any significant, it has got to be well under 5%, maybe even under 1% of the population that would shell out $500 for a vaccine.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yeah, I mean, the monoclonal antibody doesn't prevent the infection they're supposed to like that COVID vaccine, the mRNA COVID vaccine, they're supposed to reduce complications so that you don't die. It's doesn't prevent the infection of transmission. This is the thing, these vaccines, we were all sold the bill of goods from the get-go from smallpox vaccine on that these vaccines were going to prevent infection and transmission, that does not happen with a lot of the vaccines, that does not happen.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

At least in the last few hundred years.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yeah. So this whole idea that everybody's got to do it for everybody else doesn't hold water. In other words, you should be able to look at a pharmaceutical product, have all the accurate information, and be able to make an informed decision. NVIC has never told anybody to vaccinate or not vaccinate. That is not our role, we've never done that. We're not physicians, we're consumer advocates. So we make no judgment on what you want to do, that is your business. You as a doctor, you have the right and the ability to say vaccinate or not vaccinate, but I don't. But I do defend the right that you could make a choice, that it's your human right to exercise informed consent to medical risk taking. And for that we've been vilified. I mean, doesn't everybody want that right? Why has this become such a political ideological battle? It's become that-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

You answered that question earlier on.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

I did, it's about the money, I'm sorry.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yeah. Come on, I've been listening, we know what the answer is.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yeah, we do.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

That's the motivation for the destructive actions they've taken and continue to.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

And power. Money and power because it's a lot about controlling people.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Right. When you get higher up, it's the power because they got more than enough money.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

And that's the other thing that just blows my mind. They have all these behavioral psychologists, this is the new thing now, all of these papers that are published in the academic journals are about, how can we figure out ways to change the values and beliefs of these people who are resisting vaccination? They've got all these psychologists and psychiatrists and behavioral specialists trying to figure out how to change everybody. Is that the role of government really? Is that the role of government is to come in and try to screw around with your mind and your personal beliefs so that you'll do what they want you to do? That's truly Orwellian.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Well, it's exactly what you'd expect from a fascist government because their interests are the same as the corporations, they're aligned.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Everyone needs to read, if they haven't, I come from the '60s, I'm a baby boomer, you need to read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley and 1984 by George Orwell. If you haven't read it, if you're a young person listening to this interview or watching this interview, you need to read those two books. The other thing I was very impressed with was the series of the Hunger Games. It was a series of books that my children read in high school.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

And movies too.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

And movies. And you know what? That's another thing that you need to do.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

What's that?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Watch the Hunger Games, watch The Hunger Game series, read those books.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yeah. Well, it's interesting how they use the media and the films to, I guess insulate, not insulate, but inoculate the population with some of their goals or desensitize them to some others.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Oh yeah. There have been screenwriters in Hollywood who go in and write storylines about these anti-vaxxers who have caused measles outbreaks. Remember when I did in 2019, I did the commentary that was very well received you republished it, What's Going on with Measles? The Science and Politics of the Eradication of Measles. I'm telling you this story is one of the people who have the money and the people who have the political power are the ones who are framing the narratives. And those narratives are full of holes scientifically.

And we have been asking for four decades for them to do the science, the biological mechanism science that will inform vaccine policymaking about exactly who is genetically, epigenetically, environmentally and biologically at risk for not having a really bad outcome for vaccination. So that you don't have to say, "Oh, we're just going to have some people be expendable for the rest." For people who choose to vaccinate, they need that information, they need to know if they're at risk for a higher risk for having a vaccine complication that can lead to injury or death. But we've got all this AI, we have all of this science and technology, but we can't figure that out? I don't believe it. I believe they know, and I believe they're deliberately not telling the people, and they're deliberately not giving out the information because they want to have the power to say, "Got to do it for the greater good. And if you get hurt, too bad."

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

That's for sure. You mentioned the MMW escalation campaign they had in 2009, it brings back the memory I think that's the year that I had invested in doing a PBS special. When was the year that the measles epidemic hit Disneyland?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

'15, 2015.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Okay. That's when it was, it was 2015, it wasn't 2009, I got it mixed up. But in 2015, they used that to escalate the narrative, of course. And I'm sure it wasn't related to my PBS special, but they used that to get me off and I invested like hundreds of thousand dollars in this special. And at the time, I didn't realize that PBS was absolutely part of the global caval, they're the government arm of misinformation, so of course they were going to remove me.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Well, it's interesting. In my report I talk about a special that PBS did in 2010 called the Vaccine War. I was in that commentary. They did an update in 2015.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

You weren't?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

No, I was in that commentary. And what I said-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Were you a vilified?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

No, no. This is what's interesting. As you know, I did a lot of television debates. I debated more doctors on television than any other American, and I did that in the '80s, '90s, particularly the '90s and the early 2000s. And 2015 was the last time that I was asked to give a perspective, a consumer perspective on television. So 2015, it was like a steel door went down. But the vaccine war actually in 2010 sort of brought all perspectives together and I was part of it. And in that interview I talked about how the internet had changed everything, how on this free speech platform, we were able to talk to people and connect with each other, et cetera. I kind of gave them a roadmap, in other words. Anyway, by 2015-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Tell my word. Well, they figured it out, they weren't stupid.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

I know. No, you can see they knew it way back in the early 2000s. But in 2015, they rebroadcasted and they had a clip in there where I said, "Basically, Americans have a choice to make. They can either stand up for their freedom or they can have it taken away by public health officials and the pharmaceutical industry," what I said today, and it got vitriolic response, "Why did they have Barbara Loe Fisher on there providing false balance? That's the worst thing that they did on that show is to have her there talking about," what I said. So 2015 with the Disneyland measles outbreak, that's when it really escalated, the hate fest really escalated.

And then of course, we had the 2019 measles outbreak in New York City, in the Orthodox Jewish communities and in Washington state. And that stampeded Congress into these hearings about how social media really needed to get their act together because if they didn't, they were going to remove their immunity that they got when they first started because the companies, the social media companies are protected from immunity lawsuits for the content on their social media platforms. And what I really realized for the first time was the social media companies almost had no choice. They were relentlessly, relentlessly hammered by politicians by this disinformation, censorship complex. I mean, if you're a business and you're doing something that the government has given you liability protection for, you're not going to want to give that liability protection up, right? You're going to want to have that liability protection. Well, that's exactly what happened with the social media platforms.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

There's a book called Surveillance Valley, it's a take on Silicon Valley by Yasha Levine. It goes into depth in great detail and makes a powerfully convincing argument that certainly Facebook and Google are essentially arms of the military industrial complex, and the intelligence agency, it didn't say military, which is probably the same, the intelligence agencies, the CUA and NSA, who actually funded them. And it's interesting, there was a progenitor of Facebook that was clearly a project of the, I think it was NSA, and I forgot the name of it, but literally they took it down one day and the next day Facebook got spun out, doing the same things that it was doing.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

What's so sad is when I would be part of these government advisory committees, when they were having me as their token rep, consumer rep in Institute of Medicine workshops, and I would beg them to do the science, and I warned them that if they didn't do it, they would face this time when people would reject the vaccines because they had not done the science to tell people who was at risk. They could have done the right thing a long time ago, and they would have precluded this public backlash against not just the disinformation that's been given out about vaccines, but also certainly the oppressive laws. You can see it when you read the medical literature, you can see how because they were so stubborn and so determined and so hubristic that they refuse to change in any way they are responsible for the public distrust in their system. And it will only get worse, it will only get worse until they decide to do the right thing.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Well, then it's going to get worse because they're not going to do the right thing. There's just no way, unless they're forced to or they-

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Well, the government should not be funding any university, they should not be funding this disinformation industrial complex.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

No, but it's-

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Well, the politicians could put a halt to that. Congress could put a halt to that.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

But it's essentially-

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

There are things that could be done.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

It's a one party system, it's a uni-party. They're pretty much all beholden to the corporations, especially the military. It's just shocking to see ostensibly smart, well-educated politicians just claiming massive disinformation is true.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

But there are individuals who are-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

There's a few, Jordan is an example of one absolutely, Jim Jordan.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

So we can have hope. And there's a whole lot more people out there, there's 340 million people in this country, and how many in the world? 8 billion? The people who are in charge of this infrastructure, this global infrastructure, are a very tiny number of people compared to the billions of people on this earth. If people understand what's at stake, they can do something about it. Certainly in our representative constitutional republic, we can do something about it, but it's going to take awareness and it's going to take some work. You can't just sit in your home and watch Netflix.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

That's for sure.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

And change anything.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yeah, and we've been essentially targeted since 2016, aggressively targeted, which is when they took us out of the Google search engine. So we have essentially been out of the search engines for seven years now. And even though we were on YouTube until 2021... '21 they took us off? Yeah, '21, August of 2021, we essentially were shadow-banned, which is what happens when your content is allowed, but it's not promoted, not widely spread like they do with the algorithms you're taken out, you're essentially just not put in the algorithms to promote your content or you're put in there to exclude from the promotions, so it never goes viral. So instead, I think we got to half a million subscribers on our YouTube channel. If we weren't censored, probably would've been at 10 million, 15 million followers. There's no question. So that wasn't good enough just to throttle us back, then they just took us and you off. Did you come off the same time we did in August?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

We were the first big organization to be taken off of Facebook. We were-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

No, no, but YouTube, YouTube,

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

2021. Oh, YouTube. Here's how it went sequentially for us. We were taken off of Facebook on March 3rd, 2021, and then within a month off of Instagram, then within several months off of Twitter, and then in September of 2021-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Okay, so you were after us for YouTube. I think they just took Bobby and I off first. They just, boom.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

On YouTube?

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

YouTube, yeah. It was August, it might've been July.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Facebook, we had several hundred thousand followers on Facebook, we lost almost everybody in that blood bath between March or September of 2021. And then of course, they came in and blocked our donations that we had been with Network for Good, that used PayPal as their processor, we had been with them for over a decade. And that one night, December 21st, 2021, we were notified that all of our donations, we were at our end of the year fundraising campaign, all of our donations were blocked. I said, "Why?" We said, "Why?" And they said they're giving us no explanation. And it wasn't until months later that I found out it was 18 House of Representative members led by Auchincloss out of Massachusetts who told the CEO of PayPal to stop us from receiving any money.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yeah, well, PayPal is part of the global cabal too, right? I mean, they didn't need any encouragement to do that, they independently would've done it for sure. They're part of the team, no question. So it's good that you're out of it, but everything you've shared illustrates the importance of supporting NVIC. I mean, despite all this, the challenges, the most recent data you have, and data drives our decisions, is that, I believe you said there was 700 bills that were attempted to be passed in the state legislators in the last year, is that correct?

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Over a thousand actually bills we followed, 700 of them that we actually posted information on our NVIC portal. Nobody does what NVIC does in terms of state legislation. We personally follow all of these bills and report on them. And then if you sign up for the portal, you would get information about bills that are moving in your state. It's free and it's-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

What I want to illustrate is that this has made a difference and none of those bills got passed, zero. So I want you to speculate on what the world would look like if that portal didn't exist. Can you give us a good indication of the amount of bills that would have passed, the freedoms that would've been lost, the number, the millions of people who've been hurt, damaged, or killed as a result of not having this? Give me your best guess because you know better than me.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Yeah, no, I don't know the exact number.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Of course you don't.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

I'll makes this global statement, if NVIC had not formed in '82, if we had not in 2010 gone into the states and educated the legislators on this issue and worked with families in the states, this country would've had a COVID vaccine mandate for children. I don't have any question in my mind about that. The combination of education and advocacy has absolutely changed the landscape of the mandatory vaccination infrastructure in this country. And it was done because parents of vaccine injured children decided that their children were not an acceptable sacrifice.

And it's an important point because all of the groups that have formed since 1982, particularly in the last 10 years, are riding on the back of the ground that we plowed. And I couldn't be happier or more satisfied about that because our influence has allowed other people, other individuals and groups to form and be bigger megaphones to warn people that this is a problem. The mandatory vaccination system is not humane, it's not something that should be allowed. You cannot throw people under the bus. You have to care and value every life. And so I believe that if NVIC had not stayed the course all these years, and despite all of this persecution and all of this ghosting and removal of online platforms, we are still standing. I feel very much that you played a huge role in helping us survive and all the people who have donated to us over the years.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

It's not just me, it's the people who are listening to this. Thankfully I was insightful enough in the last century to start this platform and want to share with people the details on how to stay healthy and expanded that to an advocacy position maybe 15 years later. So it's that following that we've been able to share with. And the reason, I'm not saying this to brag or put laurels on you, but I want people to understand you've made a difference and they've made a difference by supporting you.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

True. That's true. I remember in the report-

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

And you need the support now because they're crushing you. They're crushing you organization. It's not that your mission isn't valid or making a difference, it is making a difference, that's why it's being suppressed.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

That's true.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

And these funds are important. And now I know everyone can't because it's a hardship, it's financial hardship, a lot of people are financially suppressed or oppressed. But if you can, it would be really helpful. And I don't know what I'm matching you with whatever it is, $1, $2, $3 for every dollar you donate but we want to see this work and we can't do it alone. It's a team effort and I just want to express my gratitude and appreciation for those of you who have donated in the past because it made a difference. It's made a huge difference.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

It has . It has made a big difference. It's a truly grassroots movement, and it's of ordinary people who are doing extraordinary things because they believe that in this country we should have freedom of thought, speech, and conscience and we should have the right to speak in the public square civilly, constructively. That's what America's always been about. And I believe this is a shameful, shameful era in US history and I pray that it goes, that it is consigned to the dustbin of history sooner than later. Like I say, we're at a cross-roads in this country, these culture wars are tearing us apart. But we can all agree, I think, on the Bill of Rights, hopefully we can all agree.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

There's a strong contingency now of youngsters, not youngsters, but people are just entering the educational system, going to law school and such that there are opposed to the US Constitution and they're seeking to initiate efforts to overturn it. So it's not everyone that agrees the US constitution is a good idea.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

I know, and I did a commentary on the Lancet article last year, I think was for Vaccine Awareness Week, where the Lancet, basically these authors, these public health professionals and people like Peter Hotez out of Baylor, basically called for a reframing of the US Constitution and the government to devalue individual rights. In other words that we were not being pro-social, we were not putting the state above the individual. And democracy has always sort of been defined as that the individual has rights that limit the power of the state, at least in our constitutional republic, because we are a constitutional republic, we're not a peer democracy. We elect representatives to state legislatures and federal government that pass laws that represent our will.

So yeah, the public health empire and the disinformation industrial complex wants the United States of America to devalue the individual in service to the state. Again, you're going back to utilitarian Machiavellian, the ends justify the means, a some are expendable for the rest type of ideology. Well, that's a very convenient ideology to adopt when you want power and when you want to profit off of exploitation of people. And that's, to me, what it all comes down to is power and profit and the people are the victims of this hierarchy that has been established globally, this infrastructure that basically has the wealth of the world, those who have the wealth of the world are operating in and it's very disturbing.

At the same time, we've got to see this as energizing too. You can't do something about something you don't understand. And that's why I did this report, I wanted to understand for myself what exactly had happened and why? It's clear to me, and I hope it'll be clear to other people at least in terms of how vaccination, the issue of mandatory vaccination was used as a tool to accumulate power and money.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Well, thanks for all you've done, continue to do, and your commitment an dedication to the noble cause of helping preserve the constitutional freedoms that our forefathers fought so hardly for and protect young, innocent children from this being needlessly harmed and damaged. So made a dent, thank you for everyone who supported you, appreciate that. But if you can continue your support, that would be great. NVIC needs it to continue the fight because they've been so battered by the disinformation industrial complex. So help if you can, and we're going to continue the fight, I can assure you. Our past behavior is a testimony to that.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

That's right, that's right. And I remember when we put up the monument for Truth and Freedom, to Truth and Freedom.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

Yeah, earlier this year.

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Barbara Loe Fisher:

Monument earlier this year on your property that you donated for this wonderful monument. And I wanted to have that there because if we were completely eradicated, I wanted there to be something physically somewhere that said that we were here and we tried. I think there's a lot of hope, I just think that people need to wake up and understand they've got to be part of the solution. They've got to be part of the solution. And I thank you for everything you've done and I look forward to the rest of Vaccine Awareness Week.

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Dr. Joseph Mercola:

All right, well, you keep up the good work and we look forward to getting your full report.

Barbara Loe Fisher:

Thank you.

​

References:

1 DHS Combating Targeted Disinformation Campaigns, A Whole-of-Society Issue October 2019

2 DHS Combating Targeted Disinformation Campaigns, A Whole-of-Society Issue, Part 2, August 2021

3 Sabin-Aspen Vaccine Science & Policy Group, Meeting the Challenge of Vaccination Hesitancy 2020

4 CCDH The Anti-Vaxx Industry July 2020

5 CCDH The Anti-Vaxx Playbook December 2020

6 Twitter CCDH December 22, 2020

7 Counterhate.com Disinformation Dozen March 21, 2021

8 The Disinformation Dozen

9 PR Newswire March 24, 2021

10 Facebook August 18, 2021

11 WHO Public Health Research Agenda for Managing Infodemics February 2021

12 Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, National Priorities to Combat Misinformation and Disinformation for COVID-19 and Future Public Health […

13 National Security Council, National Strategy for Countering Domestic Terrorism June 2021

14 U.S. Surgeon General, Confronting Health Misinformation July 2021

15 The Virality Project, Memes, Magnets, and Microchips: Narrative Dynamics Around COVID-19 Vaccines, February 24, 2022

16 The Weaponization of CISA: How a ‘Cybersecurity’ Agency Colluded With Big Tech and ‘Disinformation’ Partners to Censor Americans’ June 26, 2023

17 US Population Live

18 Vaccine October 6, 2023; 41(42): 6221-6226